Reply – I am a straight cis female having and argument with a TERF friend. Comments?
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I am a straight cis female having and argument with a TERF friend. Comments?
— by Beth Beth

Yesterday at 10:07 · (on facebook)
'Further proof that a tight 2 sex/gender interpretation is un scientific. Biology and nature is trying to tell us that our binary absolute interpretation is wrong by their very existence.'

California Person Is The First American To Be Identified As This Sex On A Birth Certificate
According to the Intersex Society of North America, approximately one in 2,000 children born in the U.S. annually are sexually ambiguous enough to be labeled…


Rad fem: 0.2% of the population has one of the 7 intersex conditions. 99.8% of the population doesn't have a birth defect of the genitalia. Those are about the same odds as being born with one leg, yet we still don't say the human population isn't bipedal.

 Me: If I were intersex, I would want to be acknowledged as such- not made to fit into a gender that wasn't correct. 0.2% is still a lot of people worldwide, and I'm sure it will make a difference to them if they can be acknowledged as not male or female. And then there are people who feel like they are born in the wrong gender body. Life is not a case of the mind and the body being in harmony for everyone. For most people, they identify with the gender that they are born with, others face a life long battle because the body they have feels foreign and wrong to them. So again the idea of humans just having two strict genders doesn't stack up.

friend 1: There are also those who aren't intersex or transgender in the sense that Beth described, and identify as non-binary in terms of their gender. It's not as black and white as male or female only or the sex babies are assigned at birth being their true gender.

Me:Yes, and much like awareness of other peoples cultures, or people with disabilities, just because WE don't experience that reality, doesn't mean that millions of people in the world don't. I can't think of anything more frightening, isolating and degrading than not fitting into societies norms, and being judged, discussed, knowing that people want special bathrooms built for you all over the world.. If people do go through gender reassignment, the process of that is so invasive and traumatic. We can't put people into boxes- especially when there's only 2 boxes. If it doesn't work for everyone, it doesn't work. I might be able to walk, but I still support accessible buildings for those who can't. People who can't walk may be a small minority, but they still exist, matter, and have rights. People in minorities need support to be heard sometimes. Not to be told they only make up .2% of the population.

Rad fem: " If I were intersex, I would want to be acknowledged as such- not made to fit into a gender that wasn't correct. 0.2% is still a lot of people worldwide, and I'm sure it will make a difference to them if they can be acknowledged as not male or female."
I agree with acknowledging intersex. I don't agree that birth defects changes what humans are essentially.
 People aren't born a gender. They are born a sex. Sex and gender are very different things. Sex refers to the reproductive functions and is pure biology. Gender is the social construct that has assigned roles based on that biology. The very basis of feminism is discomfort with gender and acknowledging reproductive function as the basis of female oppression. This means that most women aren't in any way comfortable with gender.
 I agree with bathrooms being built for those who don't fit male and female. Non-binary is actually everyone. I'm yet to meet Barbie and Ken. Gender needs to be abolished. Sex can't be abolished. It's in every cell of our bodies.

Friend 2: 0.2% of the population would be about 12 million people.. That's more than twice NZ's population who are born intersex. I like that it may become an option for birth certificates :) It should be recognised, nature didn't come up with male & female, we did. It could just be another way humans are evolving <3

 Rad fem:We didn't come up with male and female. They affect medically. Women are the only people who can menstruate, get pregnant and give birth. Males are the only people who can impregnate. Women are more likely to get breast cancer. Men are more likely to have autism. There's now research showing that medication affects men and women differently. That is beyond our language, socialisation and categorisation. It is solid physical reality.

Link to the scientific research on sex and disease.

Why sex really matters | David Page |…

Friend 1 to rad fem:I agree with you that sex and gender are two different things. I don't agree with most of your other statements though.

(Assigned female at birth) transgender men can menstruate, get pregnant, give birth and breastfeed. This depends on where they're at in terms of medical/ surgical transition. Trans women can also impregnate AFAB females.

It's not as black and white as you're making it out to be.

Men being more likely to "have autism" is debatable too. Diagnoses of autism are more likely to be given to those who are AMAB. A big factor is because diagnostic criteria for ASD is geared towards white boys. A larger percentage of the autistic population identify as non-binary, gender-queer, trans-gender, etc than the general population also which complicates this issue. Autistic girls and women are also more likely to "pass" as neurotypical than boys and men. So it's definitely not as simple as your statement.

Many/ most autistic people prefer identity first language btw (myself included). An internet search should provide several links to writing by autistic people on this topic if you'd like to read more.

Rad fem: 'Assigned at birth'. Doctors don't toss a coin and say 'male'. There's nothing random about birth sex. It is measurable and has nothing to do with ones feelings.

The experts in the above link seriously disagree with you about sex and disease. I'll listen to the people who are qualified and have dedicated their lives to the real science over someone with an opinion that is straight regurgitation of trans activist non-science. If sex didn't exist, as you say, but is 'assigned', aka randomly doled out like a Kris Kringle work function, then studies such as the one sited would have their funding pulled and instead of millions of lives being saved and millions of people getting the correct treatment through breakthrough solid research, some peoples inner feelings would be affirmed. I really can't think of much that is further immoral than placing an internal feeling in one person as more important than generations of peoples health and lives.

Friend 1 to rad fem: I'm not going to waste my time arguing with a prejudiced, intolerant TERF.
I'm pro peer reviewed, research based science. As someone with post grad qualifications in health science I'm well aware of the limitations in relation to scientific research too. As I said earlier, things aren't as black and white or simple as you seem to think.
XY and XX aren't the only sex chromosome combinations btw ;)

I'm blocking you as I don't engage with bigots.